Renovation Chs 1-2
In all of these conversations, I’d like you start with did you notice anything in these 2 chapters that particularly jumped out at you — either because you thought it good or possible disagreed with it. Thoughts? Here are some starting points for discussion…
Page 14-15, Willard discusses the “Revolution of Jesus” as being, “a revelation of character…one that changes their ideas, beliefs, feelings, and habits of choice…such streams [of justice] cannot flow through corrupted souls. Conversely, a renovated ‘within’ will not cooperate with public streams of unrighteousness. It will block them – or die trying. It is the only thing that can do so.” – What are your thoughts on this?
Page 25 — “Spiritual formation in Christ is therefore not a mysterious, irrational … process: something that strikes like lightening, whenever and wherever it will, if at all. Or something that is magically conferred upon us as we dwell in the midst of curious rituals and antique practices…Spiritual formation is something we human being can and must undertake – as individuals and in fellowship with other apprentices of Jesus. While it is simultaneously a profound manifestation of God’s gracious action through his Word and Spirit, it is also something we are responsible for before God and can set about achieving in a sensible, systematic manner.” — How do you respond to the person who reads this and takes it to mean that Formation is really about us doing enough right things (salvation by works)?
Page 39 — “Actions are not impositions on who we are, but expressions of who we are. They come out of our heart and the inner realities it supervises and interacts with.” We often say that the sinful behavior isn’t really who I am … Willard would disagree with that statement. And possibly the harsh truth is that we need to come face to face with: yeah, that’s who I really am. Do you agree or disagree with this?
Page 42 — “Passivity was for the Israelites, and it is for us one of the greatest dangers and difficulties of our spiritual existence.” How do you see passivity as a great danger?
Looking forward to a great start to our discussion!!
btw, I will be out of town this week in Sonora for a little family vacation…so I won’t be checking in and commenting this week, although I’d like to be doing that in the future. Enjoy!
I’m having trouble seeing everyone’s posts.
sorry about that … I need to fix it so that I don’t have to approve all the msgs … especially when I’m gone for the week
Then again, maybe its just me posting and our leader who madated this thing and decided to bail out the first week.
Hrmm… I feel odd going first, but I don’t see myself getting another chance to sit and write anytime soon, So here I go…I hope I’m doing this right.
Firstly, my own thoughts so far: These first two chapters have really made a lot of sense to me. It seems that this book will be an expansion and a useful tool in helping attain the same goal that my mom has been drilling in me since I was a child; and that simply is, that our goal in life is to live, in every aspect of ourselves, for the greater glory of God. So for example, as a child, that I would act always in a way that would please God,such as sharing, being obedient to my parents, being respectful of others, etc. Of course as a teen my mom would remind me to make choices that would always be pleasing to God, and would glorify him. Whether it was choosing a movie to watch, or how I spent my free time, when it came to relationships, even how I dressed and talked, she really emphasized that God should be at the center of all of those decisions. This book seems to explore the essence of that way of thinking and living. It touches this external process that I had when growing up and shines light on the ‘internal formation’ that is really the fundamental aspect of living for the greater glory of God. I now can clearly see (even though I have a long way to go in TRULY living out this way of life) that If I could only fully align my own needs and desires with that of Christ’s teachings, then I will freely express God’s glory in everything I do, without making constant conscience “WWJD decisions” in every aspect of my life.
That being said, I think the first blurb that Brian pointed out from chapter one is straightforward. The difficulty with it is the extent to which it actually applies. It’s a little scary really, because in this life it is so hard to actually achieve such an internal transformation. Those who have a “revelation of character” through Christ’s teachings will definitely be at odds with the wants and needs of our current society, but not only will they be at odds, but Willard explains that ” a renovated ‘within’ will not cooperate with public streams of unrighteousness. It will block them – or die trying.” This is incredibly harsh. Politicians are the most glaring example of this, I think. With so many of them affiliated with some denomination of Christianity, you would think the government’s judicial and legislative agendas would be more aligned to Christ’s teachings. However we know this is not so, far from it in fact. So I think Willard would argue then that the vast majority of politicians, who stand as figureheads for their constituents’ (ie: our society’s) beliefs, needs and ideals, do not have renovated hearts, they are saying one thing and acting out another. If they truly had renovated hearts they would be unable to perform their job, or would blatantly refuse to do their job, but they surely would not stand and “cooperate with the public streams of unrighteousness.” This leads into the third blurb, stating that “Actions are not impositions on who we are, but expressions of who we are.” For these politicians, who spend a career campaigning and standing for an ideal or belief that is at odds with Christ’s teachings, but reconcile themselves at night by saying, “well it’s just my job, it’s not my personal belief, it is not who I am,” we need to understand that if this was okay to do, then we could pick and choose when to live out Christ’s teaching’s, when to let his word influence us and be in out lives. But this is not okay, and therefore, if we sin, whether “it was for someone else” or “because it wasn’t a BIG deal” that sin is apart of who we are inside. We have to change that on an internal level with Christ’s help, so that we will understand that sin is never justified. It can be forgiven, with true repentance, but God does not justify our sins. We have to change ourselves, our internal perception of that sin, so that we can truly see the error of our ways, and transform so we will not struggle with it again. And in doing so we change who we are, hopefully in a small way becoming more like Christ.
I think that I’ve written too much already, so I’ll leave with these thoughts for now, and leave the other two blurbs to someone else. Hopefully I didn’t just regurgitate what Willard wrote; just trying to interpret what was read. Someone please comment soon so I don’t feel so alone. =/
Veronica, good insights. When thinking of politicians, interesting perspective. If they actually had a renovated within, policies and legislature would actually be different. The way we approach topics would be more Christlike in nature as well. If actions express who we are … then possibly the first step in a renovated within is a hard/close look at our actions and then come to grips with who we actually ARE, not who we’d hope to be or who we’d like others to think we are.
I agree our current society can make things difficult. Someone who undergoes such change, being at odds with the world, could feel like they are alone. They could feel and believe that no one else is doing it. Then they could question whether it is worth it.
I saw a guy one time walking along a highway that went through pheonix with a 6 foot cross on wheels. The cross had wheels on the bottom and the top rested on his shoulder. I turned around and talked with him. He was going accross the United States walking with the cross. I was impressed and moved by such a commitment. I had stopped to feed him and thank him. Yet he expressed to me doubt. He talked about all the cars passing by, that no one would stop or say anything. I could see that he was losing his faith. I could see that his fatih was dependent upon the reactions of others.
I have felt like that. I have heard others express this same frustration and then fall away. I believe if I choose to walk with Jesus then I am to be more like Jesus. Jesus was a leader and a teacher. There was no one else like him. I would be of a small minority. I would feel different and as the world is concerned, I would feel foriegn to it. I would feel disconnected to it. More faith in God would be less faith in the world.
Even Paul mentions how he gets encouraged when others are doing right. Jesus expressed disapointment in how others acted. The challenge that I face is not getting caught up in other people and what they do or don’t do. I am always affected by what and who I am around.
Here are some quotes that I like:
Pg. 18 If we would walk with him, we must walk with him at that interior level.
Pg. 24 It is love itself–not lving behavior, or even the wish or intent to love.
Pg 33 The thought of sin is not sin and is not even a temptation. Temptation is the thought plus the inclination to sin.
Pg. 34 be very careful about what they allow their mind to dwell upon or what they allow themselves to feel.
Pg 35 The will is then left at the mercy of circumstances that evoke feelings. Christian spiritual formation dotday must squarely confront this fact and overcome it.
Pg.22 deadening legalisms… we know that peculiar modes of dress, behavior, and organization just are not the point.
Pg38 Diagrams of dynamic and nonphysical realities are of course always inadequate to what they depict.
Pg. 39 Ogten–perhaps usually–waht we do is not an outcome of deliberate choice and a mere act of will, but is more ofa relenting to pressure on the will.
D-Rock, your comment on page 39 is really good. If what we do is not an outcome of deliberate choice, then the path to a renovated within isn’t (CANNOT) be about willpower alone — because our will is relenting to the various pressures.
Its my will that won’t work. God’s will working through me is when grace appears. I, however, need to be the clay and let God mold me. One of the things I was tought to do was to have an open mind. Opening my mind to God, to a new way of living, to question my own thinking and making different choices. I was told that if I keep doing what i’m doing I’ll keep getting what I’m getting. My choices, thinking, and actions, had to be different. Being sincere about it and praying to God for help with my resistant, fearful, heart keeps it real. LIke Dally said its an inside job. I don’t believe the inside can fully change without action. Honest, sincere, action. keep it real.
There’s a rattlesnake in between me and my book…
… honestly.
sure there is
Page 14-15, Willard discusses the “Revolution of Jesus” as being, “a revelation of character…one that changes their ideas, beliefs, feelings, and habits of choice…such streams [of justice] cannot flow through corrupted souls. Conversely, a renovated ‘within’ will not cooperate with public streams of unrighteousness. It will block them – or die trying. It is the only thing that can do so.”
I love this thought and get stuck because it is hard. I see it as a sign that my formation is not complete and yet is spurs me to want to see more and know God more. To me it tie’s in to the Social Context section on pg 36, especially, “Through others he comes to us and we only really find others when we see them in him.” Maybe it is the wrong motives but I think serving in Children’s or Student Ministries is a great place to work on this and be reminded of it.
Page 25 — “Spiritual formation in Christ is therefore not a mysterious, irrational … process: something that strikes like lightening, whenever and wherever it will, if at all. Or something that is magically conferred upon us as we dwell in the midst of curious rituals and antique practices…Spiritual formation is something we human being can and must undertake – as individuals and in fellowship with other apprentices of Jesus. While it is simultaneously a profound manifestation of God’s gracious action through his Word and Spirit, it is also something we are responsible for before God and can set about achieving in a sensible, systematic manner.”
I like that this section is covered in grace! It seems there is a lot of freedom within spiritual formation but the line of legalism quite fine even in my own head. The section on Israel and Us on pg 42 is a good picture for me of grace and effort.
I agree with the other quotes and thoughts… in fact I sometimes think passivity is easier. But then I’d be believing in the wrong god as Tolstoy said “The god who has to serve me” pg 40.
The other quote I really liked was Pg. 24 It is love itself–not lving behavior, or even the wish or intent to love.
Well, here goes…i’ll try my best….
First thoughts on 14-15, it’s funny when I hear about making the “choice” for our ideas, feelings, beliefs etc. As I have always been one to focus and react from feelings without making a “choice” and it hasn’t worked…even before reading this book I have been telling myself – I can choose my feelings, thoughts etc…don’t let feelings run my life. I too was told as a child how to act – but it was put into more of a “be the good girl”, and “what will people think” – I heard that a lot and it’s tough to shake as an adult, but realizing I can make my own choices and follow the choices God wants me to take is the best step.
Hmmmm, 25 – not sure what I would say to someone… I just know through my own formation how much i’ve learned that God’s way is so much better and that what i’ve learend and had to change about myself has been tough, but worth it. I sometimes think when people are doing the “right thing” why not follow Jesus, you’re already doing the acts how much better would your life be if you included him….
39 – Yes, I agree with h im…we have to take responsibilty for our actions…i’ve made some bad decisions and there was not one else in my spot or making the decision for me – it was all me
39
39 – I agree with him, we have to take responsibilyt fo rour ac
Ok – i’m not drinking, i’m having problems typing on this comment thing – anyway, pg. 42 I love the quote ” But in both cases “grace” means we are to be, and are enabled to be,active to a degree we have never been before” – exciting!!!! Active to a degree we have never been before – I think that is Awesome!
not drinking?? you sure?